News from London on growing tensions between anti Islamic militant factions and Muslim counterprotestors. What I found interesting here is where both the article’s author and the British Communities Minister are seeking to lay blame:
The violence that has hit Luton, Birmingham and London in the last few months has involved a loose collection of far-right groups - such as the previously unknown English Defense League - on one side and anti-fascist organizations and Muslim youth on the other.
In an interview published Saturday, Communities Minister John Denham accused the anti-Islam protesters of deliberately stirring up trouble. "The tactic of trying to provoke a response in the hope of causing wider violence and mayhem is long established on the far-right and among extremist groups," Denham was quoted as saying by The Guardian newspaper. "You could go back to the 1930s if you wanted to - Cable Street."
Denham was referring to a 1936 confrontation sparked by British fascist leader Oswald Mosley's decision to march through the then-heavily Jewish East End of London. Mosley's pro-Nazi followers were met at Cable Street by Jews, communists and anarchists, and a pitched battle ensued.
Now wait a tick – I know that they do things a bit differently over there, but aren’t Fascism and Nazism ideologies of the Left?
Sunday, September 13, 2009
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Fascism and Nazism as ideologies of the Left?
Fascism is commonly considered to be on the extreme right of that traditional or the 2 axis political spectrum (both in the UK and here) because of both the nature of its position on the majority of its issues, and a common affiliation of interests with other groups on the extreme Right.
There are so many core issues in conflict with the Left that I can't see how there could be an association -- although there are a few who position fascism as revolutionary centrism. Fascists don't self-identify as any part of the Left, with which they are generally in conflict.
Despite the name and it's origins, the National Socialists became an authoritarian dictatorship and are in general considered far right in ideology and alliance, but this one gets a little more complex in that they do borrow from both Right and Left in that whole Third way economic thing.
Yeah, I have to agree with Ghost (of Halloween Past) here. The issue gets blurry because rather than a two axis model, I like the circular model wherein communists (extreme left) and fascists (extreme right) begin to merge into something that most of us on either side disdain. But I also understand why so many people on the right THINK that Nazis were leftists, because the concept of an unchecked center of power with a government controlled media and taking from the haves to give to the have nots tends to smell a lot like the left. I would offer that if there is any common ground at this phantasm-centric post, it is that extremism of any kind is dangerous.
That our nation is currently moving farther and faster in one direction than I recall seeing it move in half a century, attests to the degree of emotion so many are expressing of late. One cannot help but wonder when, or if, it is going to stop short of the extreme. Right now, it isn't looking that way from over here on the other side of the circle. I'm sure GoHP will give us a report from her closer vantage.
GHP--I'll make you a deal. Cite one book that you wish I would read--the kind of thing that you think to yourself, "damn, I KNOW Bryan would benefit from reading this because he's just too smart to be so ignorant". Link to it on Amazon and I will buy it immediately and read it as soon as it arrives.
Your part of the deal? Read "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg. Try and put aside any pre-conceptions you may have about reading a book by a snarky conservative pundit--some of the strongest criticisms of this book have come from Conservatives who expected to read a polemic and instead got an intellectually honest HISTORY of the rise of both fascism and national socialism.
I've spent my adult life listening to people on the left refer to conservatives as "nazis" and "fascists", and so I guess I sorta bought into it. Until I read this book. Mussolini was CLEARLY a man of the left, and he made no bones about it. Stalin and the boys in Moscow saw both fascism and nazism as left-wing alternatives to Communism, and capitalism as the enemy of all.
But don't take my word for it. I'll read your book if you read mine.
This is where I was going as well.
CW, I know Jonah Goldberg's writings quite well, both in published and bloggy form. I have no elitist compunction about reading drivel -- I'll pick up People magazine at the dentist's office and I click on silly YouTube videos on occasion, too, so yes, I've read Jonah Goldberg. Oh, I know, organic food eater, vegetarian, composter/ environmentalist that I am: I = fascist. I think of Goldberg as clever in a political Perez Hilton sort of way.
Ugh. You know, I almost didn't touch this post for fear of being jumped on. I -- in no way -- meant to indicate that I think you or any of your comrades here are nazis or fascists. And I'm no proponent of that traditional axis of Left vs. Right. I don't even think visualizing us on a map could be done with Mudge's circle, tho' maybe if pushed, I might say it could be a sphere where quite a few dimensions come into play.
I use the existing Left vs. Right terminology as a flawed shorthand, typically in a tongue in cheek sort of way, and a means of establishing relative position within the context of a conversation. I don't honestly think of myself as a "Lefty", much as I don't think you look in the mirror and say "I'm a good, true soldier of the Right." Does anyone really believe we all fall out along that single dimension? No. There are some issues in which I'm way up there on the Right with those crazy Libertarians. How can that be? :)
But if you do use this measure, there are broadly accepted positions: fascism is considered extreme Right. Communism is extreme Left. By acknowledging that Communism falls out on the Left using this blunt measure, I'm no more endorsing or supporting that ideological group than I'd expect you would support fascism. Mudge mentioned the dangers of extremism. I'm in agreement. I think there can be perversion and corruption of any ideology. Anarchism -- where does that fall out? Right or Left? See how easy it would be to shuffle things around so the bad guys are all on one side? Sure, Like Jonah, I could probably set up a series of examples along a carefully edited historical timeline and create an argument that Communism falls out on the Right and publish "Conservative Communism."
Weren't you a history major? Didn't you see conflict between "history" acc. to Goldberg and and the historical record as you know it? And while I'd like to dismiss the book's premise with "saying something is so -- however loudly -- doesn't make it so", sadly, I've seen that happen all too often in the minds of some people.
But honestly, I can't think of any one great work that might sway you that you wouldn't have read already, and I don't know that I'd want to. OK, wait, Goldberg himself points out Orwell: reread Animal Farm. Orwell is no Goldberg, I'll admit, but it's a light, clever read and contains a chilling point about the dangers of rewriting the past to suit your present.
GOH, I was taught the same but it was BS. Read Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg. He'll explain it all to you. A bit too involved to address in this forum.
Gee, nevermind. I see CW already suggested the book. Sorry.
I guess I should read the whole string before I open my mouth. So, you've read Goldberg but still believe Fascism is a conservative (as in classic liberalism) ideology.
'Nuff said. You fall into the lead a horse to water camp. Listen sport, everybody can say something and that doesn't make it true. Open your mind. I'll bet I can name a book you haven't read, 1984.
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