Friday, December 19, 2014

Let's Talk About Cuba

Fidel Castro 
Yesterday I went back and forth with a Facebook friend over Cuba, and it is worth sharing.

 Gregorius Caroline du Nord I don't believe in doing business with ANY totalitarian state under ANY circumstances. WE should have invaded the place in the 90's when Russia was on it's ass and established a Democratic Republic, then put Castro on trial and let the Cuban people decide what to do with him. But we were too busy building China to the detriment of our own people and industry so as to appease leftists and traitorous business interests. Remember what Marx said, classes from different countries have more in common with each other than with other classes within their own country.
December 17 at 11:03pm · Edited · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord "We have had better relations with far worse regimes"
Name one CW. They don't come any worse than Cuba.
24 hrs · Like

Bryan McGrath China through the 1970's. The Soviet Union throughout much of its history. There's two.
23 hrs · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord Bullshit! They were not "far worse" by any stretch of the imagination.
Where do you get your info on Cuba, George Clooney?
23 hrs · Like

Bryan McGrath No; not at all. And it is stunning to read you give two of the world's most brutal police states such a pass...
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Gregorius Caroline du Nord A pass? No way Jose (or should I say Fidel). The Cuban model was the Soviet model...two peas in a pod. The Chinese were different, but just as brutal.
My point is Cuba is a totalitarian dictatorship with all the mass killings, etc. and for you to say we've dealt with "far worse" is sophistry. I love you brother but you got your head up your ass on this one.
23 hrs · Edited · Like

Bryan McGrath Let's do a thought experiment, Gregorious. Let's think about China, today. China is still a totalitarian regime, but would you not consider it FAR less so than under Mao? Do you not think economic normalization played a role in it? Another point....Ronaldus Maximus used a similar argument to the one Obama is using when he advocated engaging the South African regime under apartheid. Drove the Libs crazy. Isn't there some possibility that isolating isn't as effective as we'd like to think?
23 hrs · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord I appreciate that. But the voice of reason and probity stepped up and got things under control. Headmaster Bryan.
23 hrs · Edited · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord Well under Mao and Zhou Enlai China was a much more volatile state that's for sure. But the idea that a communist dictatorship can become all warm and fuzzy is absurd. China today is a thousand times more dangerous than the pre-Nixon/Kissinger China.
Give me 50 bucks and a day or two and I'll put together a fact sheet for you, you can show it off at some conference or war college.
23 hrs · Edited · Like

Bryan McGrath I'm probably at least as realistic when it comes to China as you (remember what I do for a living), and no one sees them as fuzzy. As for more dangerous, you are spot on. But that isn't the question. The question is whether or not economic liberatlization has created additional freedom in China over and above what it had before. They may still suck, but do they suck less? This is what I'm suggesting will happen with Cuba. In fact, I think the regime is going to be overwhelmed.
23 hrs · Like · 1

Gregorius Caroline du Nord South Africa was a different animal altogether. Different set of circumstances with different resolutions.
Let me ask you this, is South Africa a better place now than thirty years ago?
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Bryan McGrath I can't say for sure. I tried to assess this two years ago when I visited. For white people, it is assuredly not. But they don't comprise a majority. Crime is rampant, that is for sure. But I imagine that for the average black South African, things are better. Whether it was a different situation isn't important. What was important was a leader who believed that engaging a screwed up regime worked better than isolating. Let's look at our two wonderful, sixty year examples of isolation--Cuba and North Korea. How's that working for us? For them?
23 hrs · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord No I think China is a modern feudal state. The elites control the economy and there's very little mobility of any kind.
Look. it's not that difficult to get huge growth rates with an economy like China's. If I've got 5 bucks in year one and make 10 bucks in year two, I've got a 100% growth rate. But what drive an economy is innovation, and China has none. Everything they have they've either stolen or bought (mostly stolen). Their model with their problems (and they have tons) is unsustainable.
23 hrs · Like

Bryan McGrath I have only limited quibbles with this; but the question remains whether or not economic liberalization has created MORE freedom in China. This is a relative measure.
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Gregorius Caroline du Nord Here's the thing CW, North Korea and Cuba are criminal regimes. And like criminals they should be isolated. If we don't have to do business with them we shouldn't, keep them marginalized and in "jail".
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Bryan McGrath While their populations suffer?
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Gregorius Caroline du Nord More wealth for the elites and yes some has trickled down. But so what? My priority is not the Chinese people. My priority is protecting freedom because free people don't start trouble. China is an ascending power and a huge problem...and we created them.
23 hrs · Like

Gregorius Caroline du Nord If their populations suffer it's not my doing. I want to help but if helping the people of North Korea means giving aid and assistance to criminal mass murderers then sorry, not gonna happen.
23 hrs · Like

We left it there.  There is a lot to his position, and I realize it is more consistent with a center-right view of the world.  But I've always thought our policy toward Cuba was non-sensical, that we could steamroll that regime with capitalism if we just gave it a chance.  It looks like maybe we will get an opportunity to test the theory.  But my interlocutor's point is a good one--there is something to our nation's having stood up to totalitarian police states--so my advocacy of throwing the rudder over on this issue is made with some reservation.


Tom de Plume said...

For 50 years they have been able to trade with 95% of the world's population and their economy is still a basketcase. I guess you can't count on ex-Viking leftists from the Scandanavian bloc and petroMarxists from Venezuela for anything nowadays.

But poor Barack Hussein. On the day of his groundbreaking foreign policy announcement cheered from Madison to Berkeley, he gets overshadowed by the other Marxist hereditary dictatorship in the world.

"The Hammer" said...

This conversation was used without my consent. This falls under the "intellectual" property rights laws and I want mine. So sent me fi-dollar.

The Conservative Wahoo said...

I was simply trying to protect your identity, you bumpkin.

Vaidro said...

Amazed that the subject of cigars didn't figure in this discussion.

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